Ever find yourself stuck in making tough decisions? Which way is up? Which way is right? Use values to help you lead your team through any situation.
[00:00:00] As leaders, it's so easy for us to get caught up in task strategies and our to-dos, but all of those things have no value if we don't know how to take care of the people we oversee. If strategies and tasks cause us to collect our people, then no matter the results we're getting, they're worthless. So how do we lead at a high level, get incredible results while still taking care of our people?
[00:00:25] Well, welcome to The Good Leader Podcast. Yay.
[00:00:33] Good morning. Good afternoon, Oregon Evening, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Good Leader Podcast, a very spooky edition here on The Good Leader. We are recording on all Hollows Eve Halloween. Uh, this. We'll probably be hearing this on your job or drive to work a couple of days from now, so it may be November 1st, November 2nd, whatever it is though, I, I, I would be remiss if we did not discuss Halloween today, because here we have four very festive people.
[00:00:59] [00:01:00] We're all dressed up if you're following on YouTube. Not at all, actually. I mean, I don't know. Jess, is that an outfit or is that just how you decided to go to work today? I'm just chilling. You know, This is no costume. Right. Don't work for home life. Jess showed up as a Gen Z worker. Appreciate that. Uh, Lemuel showed up as a really cool, uh, youth pastor and, uh, on, on, on, uh, she is, let's see, she's kind of blurry right now.
[00:01:26] I think she is an approaching middle- aged mom. Excellent. . Wow. That's funny. That is the worst. That's funny. Wait, is that not what that outfit. That's what it looks like to be. I don't know. I hope not. I mean, I don't know. You got, You got a moment. Middle. A middle age mom. I said approaching number. Hold on.
[00:01:44] I'm 28. I said approaching. I said approach. My God. In that case, just as approaching too. Hold up. Well, how, how long do you plan on living? How long do you plan on living on? Just give me another, I don't, I well rate, it sounds like I'm dying tomorrow. Hold on. [00:02:00] Would 90 be a fair estimate? Nine. If I'm giving you 90 years, that's above average.
[00:02:04] I don't know. My family span, that means un, it's questionable if we live that long, 30 to 60 would be middle-aged. And I said, You are dressed isn't approaching middle aged. I thought that was the cost. You, You're there, you're, I see. Make sure, Jared, I need you to make sure that Jen listens to this part specifically.
[00:02:21] Ely, Thanks. I tell you what, Hey, I tell you what, there are many things that the beautiful Gen Mer will get onto me for, but owning age is not one of them. She and I fully. You know, we are smack dab, middle-aged. It's, it's not the age. You could call me whatever age you want. It's the, evidently not, It's the whole sentence of what you just say.
[00:02:42] I obviously can't, You basically, Well, I don't wanna roast other people, so I was just about to, but, uh, you, yeah, you basically called me a whole. Variety of people that I try to stay away from looking like, you know, like, Mom, you nailed it though. Middle. I'm sorry. Look in my, I'm about to stand all the way up in my jacket.
[00:02:59] Hey, [00:03:00] with with pants, she's jacket on. That's very, I a bomber and cargo pants. Don't know. This sounds a lot of moms like, this sounds to me like you have not been hanging out with a lot of moms, cuz most moms these days are trying to accomplish exactly what you're trying to accomplish. , I don't hang out.
[00:03:15] I'm looking around seeing you're tr that's what mom's dress like in 2022. All right. I didn't start to pick a fight. I was just talking about all her. Halloween in custody was the exact same last week, and she does not actually, I think Dean and I have the exact same pants and she's not a mom. fine. So be it.
[00:03:31] You're telling me that the distinction between mom clothing and non mom clothing is disappear. Fine flame. Cut it. I'll go with that. I'm just saying Happy Halloween. We'll, costumes here. We'll pick up the fight later. Now we're podcasting. Now we're in season three, Episode one. We were nice to each other.
[00:03:47] We were cordial. This is where it's at. Next thing you know, shaking the clothes, Renee Brown. She's gonna be recording Renee Brown in 30 seconds. Be like, Well, I'm bound to, You know what Mother Brene says? You know what she says? The [00:04:00] queen herself. I'm just, You know what? She's probably middle aged mom. What does she say?
[00:04:05] What's the word? Now this is serious question. What's the word that she use? Tussle, Tumble rumble. What does she use? Rumble. All right. Yes. We what? Dule. Hey, I, that was not, I'm not even making fun. You know, I'm a huge fan of that. I'm, I'm, I know. Let's rumble. We're doing it right now. We're doing, let's really rumble for what a middle aged mom looks like.
[00:04:25] We really, for one. I, number one Limial was on the tape. He was on my side. The gigo. I said approaching, approaching middle-aged. I got you on. Don't worry. Thank you. Christmas. You Louise. All right. This is why I can't be out. It's Halloween. I was gonna ask, are you celebrating Halloween? I mean, Jess, Jess, she is not close to approaching middle aged.
[00:04:50] She's probably got some big, uh, costume party she's gonna go to. You got a big, big party tonight, Jess? No, I did that this weekend, so. Oh, okay. I'm just gonna drink [00:05:00] coffee and watch American Horror Story all. Oh, okay. All right. Right. I'm into 50% of that, uh, limu on where do you fall? Where do you fall in Halloween?
[00:05:08] Here's my, here's, here's my problem with Halloween. I don't need any, anymore candy in my body, and I don't want people ringing my doorbell every five seconds. Maybe I'm just a grumpy, I'm, I'm a grumpy guy, approaching middle age. I don't know. He is the middle age mother in this situation. Not. Oh, no. Oh no.
[00:05:29] He dresses way too cool to be considered middle-aged. Or a mother. This is a trucker hat. It's kinda like, Sorry. All you moms up there. I'm not to dress cool. He's older than dress exactly the same. And he's older than me. I know, but I know. Oh, so now I'm not allowed to learn and grow. And I came over to your side.
[00:05:45] I came over to your side. I was like, Oh, okay, cool. For Lem, you did. Geez, no. From your leadership, I followed you and now you won't let me. Thanks a lot. A wow. Allow people to change and grow on you. Celebrating Halloween, you taking your kids [00:06:00] trick or. No, we're not doing, we're not doing trick. I actually err more on this side.
[00:06:05] Lem does. I'm like, I have young kids. Please. I actually put a sign up. Do not ring the doorbell, or I'll come after you. So we're in that, uh, ballpark because Laurens will just lose his mind. But Liam's best friend, he's four enough, so he has best friends and everyone's his best friend, but his most best of the best friends lives in a neighborhood where the kids all do some parade.
[00:06:24] They like parade through the neighborhood. So we're supposed to go over to that friend's house today and, and watch him parade. Isn't that called trick or treating ? I mean, No, it's not. So it's not candy, It's like a parade that they do. Oh, okay. Alright. And then the kids can go trick or treat after, but they like, I'm, I'm confused about show off you guys next time off their costumes.
[00:06:47] I think it's like showing off the costume. Who's watching? If all the parents are taking the kids parading down? Who's watching the old people on the street? Jared, I have a lot of questions. Again, I've never lived this suburban mom life. We just got invited. [00:07:00] Shocking to your, to your surprise. Be careful.
[00:07:02] You'll have to change outfits. You're gonna be a suburban mom. You're not gonna, you're not allowed to wear them. I'm gonna change outfits. I absolutely do. Get me the lule. I don't know where it's at. . I don't know about the parade, but please don't start wearing Lulu Lim, You'll, I. So here on the scale, Lim's, Total Fuddy.
[00:07:18] Dud. Uh, Jess is young, living her hip, happening life, uh, partying all weekend, watching the American Horror Story today. And just falling in the middle. And I gotta give you credit. I totally agree with you on sleeping babies. Please don't ring our doorbell, please. I get that totally. If, if ever, if I'm always on the side of don't wake the sleeping baby, please.
[00:07:38] Oppos to workers, ups drivers, please don't knock on my door, please just leave the package and go all of the above. So I'm always gonna err on say that. But you guys, I, I'm all about it. I'm all for it. Let's do it. Let's dress. And, you know, um, as a firm believer in Jesus Christ, I sometimes get static from my, uh, fellow brothers and sisters because there's a big, there's a big [00:08:00] swath of, uh, Christian ease when it comes to Halloween.
[00:08:03] You know, either mm-hmm. , you know, we're all, uh, Satanic or, you know, we own it completely and. You know, I, I've been a part of churches where we actually had like a haunted house at church, uh, way, way back in my younger days. I've also been a part of churches that was like, actually we had like a 24 hour prayer service on October 31st.
[00:08:21] So I, I've seen, I've seen the big gamut and here's where I fall, here's where I fall. I'm all about it. I say, Let's have fun. Here's where I like Halloween. Number one, I like dressing up. I don't even need a reason to dress up. I got a whole costume closet, but you gimme a specific day to be silly and dress up.
[00:08:36] I'm in. Kids love it. Yeah. We like dressing up like parade around. Great. You wanna dress up? We'll celebrate. Let's make you, uh, a hero and have some fun in the number three, uh, in direct opposition to my man. Limial over there on the other side of plexiglass. Uh, I do not have enough candy in my life. Bring it on.
[00:08:54] It's a day, it's a day where I can stock up on candy. Like, let's do it. [00:09:00] I. Why I, as a parent, am always providing candies, snacks, goody bags. I am always, always, always contributing. It's the one day of the year that I'm like, Yes, please stock up. Bring it on. Let's stock up. We don't eat it all at one time, but let's stock up and let's do this
[00:09:18] Here's what I don't do. Now today's topic is values. Believe it or not. This is just a gigantic segue, I'll be honest. We were distracted, uh, by, um, On's direct opposition to being called either middle aged or mom. I'm not sure which or the combination there of that really stuck, stuck in her. I wasn't prepared for that.
[00:09:38] Outside of that, This was all a set up to talk about values based leadership. Last time we talked about vision, and you have to know your vision. We talked about the distinction between vision and mission. Values then are how you live this out. So let's say if your vision, you know, we wanna change the world, Great.
[00:09:55] What's our mission? Our ours at Paradigm Shift, to be more specific, our vision is to create [00:10:00] positive change. Great. How are we gonna do that? That's the mission. That's the what? Like, okay, well what are you actually doing? Well, Help to unlock every leader's potential. That's great. Well, how do you operate both internally and externally?
[00:10:11] That's your values. system, and this is where the Halloween, it's not a one size fits all. There's not an answer. You have to know your values and why you're living them. So you gotta draw lines everywhere. Leadership may be just figuring out where to draw the lines. That's a lot of what leadership is.
[00:10:27] Where do we draw the lines for our family? Where do we draw the lines for our organization? Where do we do all the lines? What is acceptable? What is unacceptable? What is in the yellow area? Uh, there's a great activity just to throw it out there. If you're ever, ever needing to have conversations like these, if you are wanting to do what Brene Brown does, which is rumble, have healthy conflict, a great activity, Sometimes people just need tools, and there's a great tool called Red, yellow, green.
[00:10:51] We use it when we're trying to create full value contracts. You could do it at a retreat. You could have it even just one on one, red, yellow, green. You could even do this like in your. Say, Hey, what [00:11:00] behaviors right now are red, yellow, or green? Red being, no, this is across the line. I do not like this. This is causing me turmoil.
[00:11:08] Or th uh, this is an unhealthy practice. I don't like it. I don't like that we're doing it. Then yellows, of course, are the questionables, they're the yields, they're the ma, and then greens are the, Go ahead. We like it. Green is go with all of this. Then we're trying to decide where to draw the line. So here's where red draw the line on Halloween, and then we'll talk about why this matters for values based leadership.
[00:11:27] Now, once again, this is just Jared Mer speaking on behalf of Jared Mer. Not the Good Leader podcast or paradigm shift in general, but for us at the mers. I like dressing up. I see no problem dressing up. I think it's, I, I would dress, I dressed up for homecoming. I would dress up for prom and I'd dress up for Halloween.
[00:11:43] Great dress up, so I got no problem with dressing up. What's Halloween? I got no problem with candy. Great wheat candy, 365 days a year. I got no problem with candy. I got no problem with trick or treating, knocking on a stranger's door. I would do that just for fun on, you know, any random day of the year.
[00:11:59] That sounds like [00:12:00] you're talking about a great activity. Not on Halloween. Let's not trick or treat. Let's go meet people. Uh, so I'm all about that. So, so far I'm three for three. Here's where I draw line, here's where I don't like it. Our values then, mainly because of our faith to be completely. Is, I don't like the demonic stuff.
[00:12:18] I don't like the evil stuff. I don't like the, I don't like it. I just don't like it. I don't like scary movies at Jess. I am not gonna watch American Horror Story just by the title. I'm out. No, thank you. I don't like it. It's scary. That sounds scary to me. Is it scary? I assume it's a scary show. Uh, yes. In in hindsight, yes.
[00:12:32] I'm out. I'm out. No, thank you. Mm-hmm. . I don't wanna be scared. I don't like being scared by accident. I sure don't wanna be scared on purpose. So I'm out. I'm out on all that kind of. So to me then when it comes to our values is like, well, do you celebrate Halloween? Well, Depends on what your values are, know your values, and then make the decisions based on that.
[00:12:52] When we get back from the break, we'll talk about not just Halloween, but why values based leadership is the highest form. Of leadership [00:13:00] specifically in decision making and the other three counterparts, how you may be making decisions.
[00:13:11] Welcome back, uh, during the break if you'd like to follow us at Paradigm Ship. Just where can we follow everybody? Is it at Paradigm Shift Leadership? Is that the best place? Yes, it is. Yes, sir. We'll throw in, uh, we'll try to throw in some outtakes because what you missed on the break, uh, off air was, was maybe some of the best stuff on, um, uh, former employee of Paradigm Shift.
[00:13:33] You decide to move on to Green Crash because she doesn't like the way that I've classified her as approaching middle age. And, uh, we'll put up a pole. I'd love to put up a poll. We'll throw in a question there. When does middle age. Uh, when does middle age begin? Is it an age? Is it a mindset? Is it a contributing factor of, um, uh, what, uh, acts of life?
[00:13:54] You know, like what are you doing with your life that makes that we are in full on debate? And I'm curious [00:14:00] what you all think out there because. You know, I struck a nerve with, on today, I struck a nerve with on, and, uh, it's just, just, I was just talking about her Halloween costume and it just went, Ralph, you know, if you've ever had, You struck a nerve.
[00:14:12] Yeah, you struck an nerve with me every day. So you have, This is nothing new. That's true. That's true. But I really struck it with that. All right. Values based leadership. Now, the reason to me that it's important, and we're gonna go back and forth here, so I'm gonna give you my, I'm gonna give you my overview.
[00:14:26] I'm gonna answer a question. That Lial brought up in the show notes that I think is a really good place to start with this. And then we will, uh, wrap it up with some rapid fire q and a just chit chat. I wanna see what y'all think, but the real question I, I said leadership then is about drawing the lines.
[00:14:40] It's really comes down to decision making. I, I think actually if, if we're really gonna have a conversation about leadership and we've done this on the show before, you've really gotta talk about decision making. That that may be the essence, um, of what it is, if you want. Achieve more. If you want to grow in your [00:15:00] opportunities in life.
[00:15:01] Learn the art of decision making. Now I say art because I don't think it's an exact science. I don't think that you can say, Well here's the book on decision making. I think it's a a, it's a myriad of inputs that comes with one part. Confidence comes with one part, uh, sometimes experience. That's why we do like to have experience in roles.
[00:15:19] It's not that we wanna look down on people because they're young, but it's cuz sometimes where you. These types of decisions before, but if you want to, if you're sitting out there and you're like, Okay, I don't know how to grow in my job, or I want to, uh, you know, I wanna climb up the corporate ladder decision making where it's is, where it's at.
[00:15:39] You get paid to make decisions. That's what it is. If you want, if you want a promotion, you're gonna get paid to make decisions. Mm-hmm. , if you are wanting an increase in responsibility, be ready to take on more decision making. Mm-hmm. , that's really what it's. So then if leadership is influence and decision making, that sort of mix,[00:16:00]
[00:16:04] well then we have to ask ourselves, how are we making decisions? How are we making decisions? That's where the values come in. Mm-hmm. . So if you know your. Hey, this is why we exist. This is why we exist as a human. Why I exist as a human, why we exist as a family, why we exist as a company, any organization, our mission, what we're trying to accomplish, The values are how we're going to accomplish.
[00:16:28] In other words, this is the set of criteria upon which we will make decisions to complete our mission and fulfill our vision. That's the, that's the walk. This is, these are the values upon which we will make our decisions. It doesn't mean that you have to get it right every single time. It doesn't mean that you're gonna get every single answer correct.
[00:16:47] It means that if something goes awry or we're not getting the results we want, we at least now have a shared set of ideals, a shared set of core values that we can go back to and say, This is why we want you to make [00:17:00] this type of decision, and this is why we feel it was a poor. At Paradigm Shift, we call that the shift seven.
[00:17:07] We have seven of them. There's no, uh, official number. Most organizations are somewhere between four and 10. Um, I, I would say seven or eight's about the high, high point to me, because once again, if this is how we're making decisions, you want people to be able to remember them. But a better question, maybe if people aren't using values to make decisions, how are we making decisions?
[00:17:28] And we've come up with four other four ways in total. Values-based decisions being the highest. Let's work our way upward. The worst, the lowest is irrational. Irrational decision making. This is by literal definition, but you have no rhyme or reason. You have no rationale for why you're making decision. I think of someone who is under, uh, under the influence of substance, like, wow, you are really, you are out of control.
[00:17:52] Yes, Literally, like I am not even thinking, I am just doing, I probably won't even remember this. It is irrational and some people [00:18:00] make decisions. But most of the time they're at least on the next level. Next level up is emotion, emotional decision making or emotions based. Why did you do this? I think of my kiddos.
[00:18:11] Hey, why did you hit your sister? Because I was mad. Okay, great. That is not a good decision making process. I get it. I understand. Anger is a completely fair emotion. You are allowed to feel angry. This is. We have to, if, I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but emotions are allowed. Like I am allowed to feel this.
[00:18:30] I am allowed to feel any emotion. Oftentimes I think we can't even control the emotion that we feel. I feel anger, I feel sadness. I am frustrated, I am happy, whatever. I can't control the emotion, but we have to learn to manage our decision making within that emotion. Mm-hmm. . And sometimes that means like, Hey, I am angry right now.
[00:18:49] I need a break. I am not gonna make any decisions. I. Walking away. I am taking a break. Hey, I am. Um, you know, I am pretty down right now. I don't [00:19:00] wanna make a big decision. Yeah, absolutely. This is, this is where I would think a lot of mental health and, and mental health awareness falls in, because you don't wanna make decisions necessarily when you're in that place.
[00:19:09] Like, I am unhealthy right now. I don't wanna make that decision, even if it's five minutes, or five hours or five days, whatever the case is, because emotion based decision making almost. goes awry. It's, it's rarely the right thing to do. Uh, even on the high notes, I was super, super excited. So I bought this brand new car.
[00:19:31] Wow. That is a very high payment. Are you sure you want to do that? Have you made any, uh, notable emotional decisions recently? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Recently. Um, recently, made a really hilarious joke, and, uh, I'm really bad about this. Sometimes I, I think of really, really funny things and so, uh, I like people who, like me, I like to laugh.
[00:19:55] I make these funny jokes. Uh, this happened to be about Halloween, so I made a Halloween joke, , and [00:20:00] maybe not the best decision, you know, maybe not the best decision that I made. If I had to do it again, I would probably, you know, do something else, not let me emotion get the better on me. I would've stopped while I was.
[00:20:10] At my, uh, other two jokes which landed hilariously, and I would've kept going, but. Like I said, you're not gonna bat a thousand . You're not gonna, you're not gonna be perfect every time. That's fine. It's kind of off, off of that too. Um, even if we're using that example Jared, uh, I do like what Brene Brown, since you already quoted, aren't gonna reo.
[00:20:31] It does on this with, with boundaries, especially in terms of emotion. Um, and even the way that I've tried to use correction as well is like if I'm talking to Jess, Jess, It is okay that you were upset in this meeting. I was frustrated as well. You were frustrated. You had a right to be frustrated. Being frustrated is okay.
[00:20:49] Being upset is okay. What's not okay is you slammed your computer shut. You actively disengaged. You wouldn't look at me, you wouldn't respond when talking to those things are not okay. So she really, when we think of [00:21:00] boundaries, a lot of times, I don't think we've talked about in this podcast before, but when we think about emotional boundaries in those ways, I think we often think a lot about.
[00:21:07] Um, what is not okay, but we don't acknowledge what is okay. Um, especially on the emotional side. And when it comes to decision making, hey, it's, it's okay that you don't make the decision right now, but it's not okay to lose your cool in front of the whole group in storm out. Mm-hmm. now that's something we have to fix and we have to repair.
[00:21:24] You need to remove yourself better than that. So, um, I have found that to be super helpful, especially as we argue engaging in more emotional. Uh, emotional regulation and things like that. Emotional health really. Um, that's a really helpful way to go about it as. Yeah, and you're exactly right. And, and honestly, if we were gonna throw in a book there, I think Dare to Lead by Brene Brown hits on a lot of this.
[00:21:45] Um, yeah, maybe not directly, directly, I mean, it's exact conversation that we're having. But in because, because there are unhealthy consequences. Used a couple of examples like in the moment, slamming your computer, things like that. But it could also be, hey, it's totally fine that you're upset [00:22:00] even that you're fine upset with me, but it's not okay to go talk about.
[00:22:03] With everyone in this way. That's an unhealthy boundary. Mm-hmm. . Yes, I get it. That you're super ticked off at me. Um, I'm actually okay with that. But now we have created this gigantic problem. Um, instead of setting healthy boundaries, allowing for emotions to take place and, and moving from there. So that's, that's all emotional decision making, I think is huge.
[00:22:24] Um, that's why it's on the list. That's why I think that many people, I think that if we, honestly, if, if we take that bar too far, uh, we allow emotion based decision making and we call it. And I'm like, I don't think that's healthy. You know what I'm saying? Like, well, this is just me. Yeah. I just, you know, I just fly off the handle.
[00:22:40] It's just me. Well, okay. I, The emotion's totally fine. Flying off the handle though, that's immaturity. Mm-hmm. , you are handling your emotion immaturely. And we, and so I get frustrated sometimes when I hear that kind of language that it's like, well, it's just me. I just can't, you know, I just can't deal with it well.
[00:22:59] [00:23:00] Mm-hmm. . Okay, cool. I'm totally cool with not being able to deal with it actually that. , absolutely. But let's own that emotion. Figure out how you can deal, What do you need and what boundaries are in place, And then let's make some better decision. Honestly, that all really lends itself toward values-based decision making, which is the mountain we're climbing toward, not valuing, Okay, I value a healthy work environment, therefore I will not make emotion-based decisions.
[00:23:27] Therefore, we will create healthy boundaries for healthy conflict. But in between values based and in motion based is one more, and that's what we call contemporary. Contemporary basically means who are your contemporaries? The people in your life that you are listening to. Oftentimes people make decisions based off of that.
[00:23:46] Now, we work on this same scale with students, and in the classic example, you just say peer pressure. You know, Who are your contemporaries? What are they doing? And you're making decisions based off of them. Everybody else is doing it. Therefore I'm doing it. But we as adults are [00:24:00] just kind of grown up teenagers, and if we're really honest with ourselves, it's like, well, why do I dress the way that I dress?
[00:24:06] You know, not throwing any shade over there. I don't know if you're middle-aged. I don't know if you're young. I don't know if you're old, but most of us probably dress the way we dress based off our contemporaries or the ideals, the view that we want to. You know how I dress this way cuz this is what people like me dress like.
[00:24:23] I dress like this because of this. Now that's a kind of a, a very surface level example. But in the same way, it's like, okay, well let's go back to my Halloween example. Hey, are you celebrating Halloween? Oh, well, no, no one at my church is really celebrating. Okay, well, that's a contemporary based decision.
[00:24:37] You're basing it on everybody else in your circle. Uh, okay. Are you gonna go do, are are you gonna go do this after work? Well, I don't know everybody else is. Oh, are you, Are you taking Friday off? Well, I guess I, everybody else is taking Friday off. I guess I'll take Friday off too. It's super, super subtle sometimes as adults, but it's still, we are allowing influence of others to base upon which we base [00:25:00] our decisions.
[00:25:01] Now, is that always bad? Not necessarily. As long as values based decision making. So values based decision making. This is where I do think that we can learn from others. We can grow. It's not like we have to live in some sort of silo. But I know my values, and then I might have a role model or a mentor or someone that I'm looking toward and I seek advice on like, Oh, this person's doing this because we share values and we are based on that value system.
[00:25:27] I'm going to wrestle with this question, with this contemporary, and therefore come to a decision that's different. That's values-based decision making in which you are reaching out to advisors. Those are the four ways of decision making that you see that we see a lot either, Well, we're gonna do this because everybody else is doing it.
[00:25:46] I went to a conference, I heard the fastest growing companies in the United States are doing this. We're gonna do it too. Uh, I heard this. We're gonna do it. Hey, we gotta change the way we do it. That's contemporary based, emotions based. Oh man, I [00:26:00] got some bad news this morning and I'm very frustrated. Um, you and so let's change everything that's emotions based.
[00:26:08] So those are the four. I don't know how that lands with you all, but if you think of, if you want, I guess some good homework as a leader is just knowing that scale and thinking about, wow, instead of just thinking about what values do we have, it may be even better to back up a step and say, Well, if we're not acting according these values, Where does our decision making process come from?
[00:26:30] Does it often come, are we just counting on contemporaries in the workplace? Like, Well, we're just hoping people teach, uh, each other how to make decisions. Is it emotion based? We kinda let everybody do what they wanna do. You've gotta think about that scale. Um, I think this is super helpful because when I, um, have found myself in, in moments where I've had to lead a team or even lead a couple people, I have, um, felt the pressure to maybe have rules based leadership.
[00:26:59] And [00:27:00] before this, doing research for this, uh, uh, podcast episode I did, I wasn't not aware of the term rules based. I had heard the, the term values based leadership, and I know that having. A set of values that align with our team is important. But it made me think of a few moments, uh, previously where maybe there was a problem and one of my team members would approach me and say, Hey, we've gotta fix it this way.
[00:27:23] And generally their solution to the problem is to create rules or to create a system so that it doesn't happen again. But it reminds me of mm-hmm. , when I'm leading a team, I. Point people to values to, to maybe correct, um, something deeper than just creating a system. And, and to me that's, he, that's how we can.
[00:27:46] Facilitate healthy culture on our teams. Someone told me one time that, um, he said you're probably a seven, meaning like talent or skill wise. He said you're probably a seven. But he said the people who understand values [00:28:00] and culture can lead people who are tens because, and I think he was speaking about, um, this kind of values based leadership.
[00:28:09] What are your thoughts on. Well, I, I really like it. I get not the last part. I, I'd love to dive in the last part. That's pretty interesting. But, um, Cause I don't think that those are synonymous. I mean, I think you can understand culture and values and be it two. Okay. If you're talking about like a scale of one to 10, Um, you know, like I can understand culture and be a real a-hole to people.
[00:28:28] Well, you're probably a two then. Mm-hmm. as far as leadership goes, especially actually you're probably a two cuz you're arrogance in the way you think, you understand culture. Like, Oh, I really get it. I'm really good at this. I think you, okay. Anyway, so that's, I think he meant here nor there. I think he meant leading within the, the culture, the desired culture of the, uh, organiz.
[00:28:47] But May. Yeah. Well that's, it could be either way. My point is I do like that cuz I am a big fan of John Maxwell's Law of the Lid. That's a, that's kind of, I think the, the connotation I'm taking there, that it's, the law of the lid is basically you put a [00:29:00] cap on your leadership, you can put ever, you can put any numeric scale to it.
[00:29:03] But the idea that I should always be growing if I'm currently in a seven, outta 10, I should strive to be an eight or a nine. I should keep growing. Oh yeah. And the idea there is if you're a. You're probably on going, probably only going to lead people that are also up to a seven. In other words, it's hard for a 10 to, to be led by a seven that people outgrow you.
[00:29:23] Hmm. But the rules, I, I, I like the term, the, um, rules-based leadership for projects and systems, but not for people and culture. Here's why. Because, you know, you lead. People, you lead people, you manage projects. So when you're talking management, this, we can have a rule, we can have systems in place where it's like, if X happens, then y I'm thinking of the system, let's say a sales system, uh, or a, you know, a, a, a delivery of your product or service.
[00:29:56] Mm-hmm. , Hey, we have rules in place for this system. If X happens, then [00:30:00] y if A plus B. It equals C. Great. And I'm talking like if a, you know, if a company is this large, uh, if they're over a thousand people, uh, we send this survey. If they are under 500, we send this other survey. Great. That makes sense. It's a rule.
[00:30:16] If this cuz, cuz we're following those rules when it comes to people though. Here's the problem. I think of it as raising children. My greatest leadership endeavor is raising my kids. It is the greatest leadership endeavor that God has given me and that I will ever be on. I cannot possibly think of every situation that my kids will encounter.
[00:30:36] And so since I cannot think of every situation that my kids will encounter, I cannot follow rules. I cannot. I can't, in other words, trust a rules-based system because when my kids encounter a scenario that they've never been taught the rule. Well, what happens, dad? My dad never taught me what to do when my friends presented this to me.
[00:30:54] I don't know what to do, but if my kids know the values of [00:31:00] honesty, of accountability, of hard work, of whatever values you have as a family, and they understand the values, It gives them a guiding system for whatever situation they have in life. It's the same way than for a company. It's like, Hey, we can't think of every rule that possibly happens, like think of paradigm shift.
[00:31:20] We send people on. We can't think of every situation that's happened. I, if I describe you some of the situations that have happened on events, it would blow your minds like, seriously, that actually happened. Yeah, that's actually happened. Crazy stuff. I mean, well, what do you do? What? You know that we've had active shooters on campus.
[00:31:36] We've had. Um, people approach people inappropriately. We've had people approach students inappropriately. We've had people approach our team inappropriately. We have had people that have hired us staff members approach our team inappropriately. We've had all, I mean, all kinds of crazy stuff. We've, we've shown up to hotels that are out of business.
[00:31:53] We've shown up to the wrong address. We've shown up. I mean, it's been like all sorts of cockamamie things. . [00:32:00] So our values then the shift seven expect. Pick up chairs. Be fiercely inclusive. Stay above approach. Do hard things, have fun. Move mountains. As you listen to those values have to be specific enough to mean something, but broad enough to be interpreted.
[00:32:20] They have to be specific enough to mean something. Like you can't just say, Hey, you know, do the. Okay. That's very broad. Like that's too broad. Uh, it has to be specific enough to mean something like stay above approach. Well, step of approach to me means, hey, if you're encountered. With a gray area of morality or ethics, the goal is to stay above approach.
[00:32:44] Hey, I'm not sure if we were supposed to turn in that receipt or not. Well stay above approach. Turn in the receipt. Hey, I'm not sure if we were supposed to leave at four or stay till five. Stay till five. Stay above approach. That's. The value system does. [00:33:00] So rules, I would say you should have rules for your project management, your systems.
[00:33:06] Um, that's almost, it's almost like, uh, here's another way, and this is off the cuff, so I'll say this and we might say, Well, that was a terrible analogy. Cut that outta the podcast or ignore it. But it's a little bit like playing a board game. The board game itself, we should have rules. Otherwise, you can't actually play the game.
[00:33:22] You have to have rules. This is the way we're going to play the game. This is our project management. In other words, we're playing by these rules, but I can know the rules and be a terrible player. A terrible person like, Wow, you are no fun to play this game with for a lot of reasons. Either you're a sore loser or you are a sore winner, or you're a cheater, or you're whatever.
[00:33:45] That's the values based principle. It's like we all know how to play this game and you're a really good player because you're following the same value system we are. And that's to say, and in the last part, which we could springboard off this forever, hey, sometimes the value [00:34:00] is competition. Let's be ruthless.
[00:34:01] Let's be cut. Like we're playing the same game of basketball and in one environment, like when we're playing pickup, it's pretty competitive. I mean, we're trying to win. Great. When I'm playing pickup at my family reunion, it is not competitive. It is a 100% inclusive. I'm trying to get everybody involved. I don't care who wins.
[00:34:21] That's. management versus leadership. It's rules versus values. So that was a super long answer, but I thought that was a really great question because I think sometimes people think they're gonna solve their problems by creating rules. Hmm. And the trouble is you're never ever, ever gonna create enough rules.
[00:34:37] That's helpful. Cuz I think, um, d we, I've, I've confused leadership versus management, but to see that kind of play out how you described it was really helpful. Awesome. Thank you Lim. I also think this is, this is kind of a hilarious plug, but I would imagine people listening to this may be in this world, I've been on the opposite [00:35:00] ends of both of these things where you're in just higher leadership and you're trying to drive culture, and I've been on the other end of like HR and um, Those are two.
[00:35:12] It is wild because it's two sides of the exact same coin. They both play a part. And I think, um, what I appreciate about Paradigm Shift and even in like Jared, your leadership in this as well, because I've been a part of teams where hr, I remember when I was in school, they used to say, work for companies where HR has a seat at the table.
[00:35:30] And I never understood that. I mean, I just did not, I was like, Okay, cool. I, that's ingrained in my head, but I don't know why. I obviously know why now. Because you really need both, both parties to establish that coin and keep the coin consistent. Keep a penny, a penny. Um, if we go so far, like if Jared and I are talking way to vision, which I think we could both do and get so far out there, sounds so good to us.
[00:35:52] This actually happens a lot. And then I go and talk to a, it's like, Oh shoot. Yeah, okay, well I didn't think about that, or I didn't think about the fact that we've told. This or, [00:36:00] or both things on the opposite end of the spectrum on the HR side, you can get almost two rules based, like what you said, Well, clearly this is a problem, let's establish it for everyone.
[00:36:09] No, clearly, I think this is one of the biggest lessons I've learned. It's not actually a problem, it's a, it's an individualized person problem. We need to talk to that. Person. It's not a culture problem, it's a people problem, and you really don't know what, where the spectrum is unless both parties are willing to work together.
[00:36:25] I think we're seeing that more and more in culture, but I think there's still so many cultures where HR is just backend. Paperwork, no decision making, no voice, no input, um, or vice versa. They're running all of it and it's just this crazy tight ship that we've kind of even lost a little bit of the culture you originally had.
[00:36:42] And, um, and so using both people I think is just, uh, a good plug that I wanted to say there because I've personally seen it make such a difference, um, and better both parties. Absolutely. And, you know, in all of. Uh, let's go back to what we said. It's art, not science in [00:37:00] all of this. It really is when it's a value based leadership and, and I mean, maybe parenting is my, my best example.
[00:37:05] So shout out to all your parents out there. It is not easy. Even if we know what we want, we can understand our values. It's an evolving world. The things change around us. That's why the rules based doesn't work. It's like, well, what does it mean to be honest? What does it mean to be, have integrity? What does it mean to be a hard worker?
[00:37:21] What, what am I trying to create in these little humans? And it's difficult, It's art and there's no, That's why, I mean, with parenting, I, I do think that there is no one way to do it. I think that we can have some big truths, like, Well, you should know your values regardless of your parenting style. What value are you trying to teach here?
[00:37:38] What value are you trying to instill? I could say the same thing for. Well, hey, there are lots of ways to lead successful organizations. What are your values and what are your guiding principles? So as we wrap all of this up, Jess, please give us a plug. You have the costume of the day. You're the winner.
[00:37:54] You nailed it. Gen Z, worker. Uh, where can we learn more [00:38:00] about leadership and, uh, cross generational? You guys can check out Paradigm Shift on pretty much every single social media platform that exists at Paradigm Shift Leadership. You can also buy Jerrod Murr's brand new published book ww.jarrodmurr.co, jerrodmurr.co.
[00:38:21] Don't call me calm until next time. Enjoy the people that are around you. If you're, if you celebrated Ha Halloween two days ago, I hope you enjoyed it. If not, get ready for next year. Don't be a fu dud. Go out there, get some free candy. Know your values and be a good leader.