Ever feel like you’re faking it and someone’s about to call you out? You’re not alone. In this episode of The Good Leader Podcast, we dive deep into imposter syndrome — that nagging feeling that you don’t deserve your success. We explore the pressures of perfectionism, the “fake it till you make it” mindset, and why being an authentic leader matters.
We also get into a thought-provoking debate on how imposter syndrome affects men and women differently, and why gender dynamics play a role in leadership. Do women face more pressure to prove themselves? Can men show vulnerability without it being seen as weakness?
Whether you’ve ever questioned your abilities or you’re just looking to grow as a leader, this episode is packed with real talk, some laughs, and actionable advice to help you help you lead with confidence.
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Unknown
Impostor syndrome is defined as the persistent inability to believe that one success is deserved, or has been legitimately achieved as a result of one's own efforts or skills. Cue the music.
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Unknown
Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, everyone, and welcome to a fake episode of the Good Leader Podcast, a podcast designed to increase the world's leadership capacity. You know, we realize that the world needs better leaders and you are one of them. So thank you for joining us. If you ever felt imposter syndrome, Jess, you heard the definition right there from orange.
00:00:39:04 - 00:00:53:13
Unknown
Have you felt imposter syndrome? That's what we're talking about. Since the day I came out, I knew you were going to know. What? Wow. Okay, this is fascinating. I don't know if I felt it. All right. Rochelle, have you ever felt imposter syndrome before? Oh, I fake it til I make it real time. Yeah. Oh, man. We are.
00:00:53:13 - 00:01:08:11
Unknown
You are. You know what? I'm already triggered. I'm triggered by both of you, I am. Oh, this is going to be the most triggering episode for Anthony Murphy. I can't wait for you. Things are going to come about. I'm already triggered. Stop! Fake it till you make it. That's trigger phrase for me. Why? It's I it works, it works.
00:01:08:11 - 00:01:25:21
Unknown
It's it's. You know what? No. It don't feel like you fake it til you make it. No way. Ever. No way. Just fake it. And you never make it. Depends on it. Have I made it or not? But, I mean, that's up to you know, I hate fake it til you make it. Because that is I'm authentic. In every space I enter, there is no time that I'm not being authentic.
00:01:25:23 - 00:01:43:02
Unknown
It's not. That's not even what that means, I guess. Now hold on. That sounds like that was a very powerful statement. I do my best to not do that, so it's not like I'm saying. So the best version of me is pretty genuine. Pretty authentic. I'm not saying that I have never. Okay, so you're saying you don't put on something else that's not yourself?
00:01:43:03 - 00:01:55:15
Unknown
No. So. Okay, am I not? That's not. Am I not good at things yet? Absolutely. I'm not good at things yet. So I'm going to try it. I'm going to do well to me. Fake it till you make it. You have to choose are you. And fake it till you make it camp. Are you in growth mindset camp?
00:01:55:15 - 00:02:11:23
Unknown
Which one are you? Jess, you made it. I don't think you can have. No, I know, but that's just not how I view it. I. I just view it differently in candor, in fairness here, I said I'm triggered. I didn't say this clearly. It triggered. I, I really triggered I'm not saying my way or the highway. I'm not saying I've got this now.
00:02:11:23 - 00:02:30:11
Unknown
I'm saying I'm triggered. Here's my truth. I'm speaking how I feel. What's your truth? Please. Thank you. But this is like I think you have to fake it till you make it. Or growth mindset. I don't know if you can. Oh, to me, both are the same, but I know, I know, I'm just checking out the door. Gosh, that's the triggering part.
00:02:30:11 - 00:02:44:03
Unknown
No. When when I get to my to I learn what I don't know and then I do better. Well I think it's more of a confidence. I think it's a confidence thing. Okay. If you let me ask you this, then if you are in, fake it till you make it mode. And I'm not even saying you let's use the royal you the royal week.
00:02:44:04 - 00:03:03:20
Unknown
Okay. Anyone. We're the everybody listening out there. The leader out. The leader out there. The leader. Like that phrase. The leader in you. Great book. Okay, so if if you are in, fake it till you make it mode, okay. Whenever, wherever that is, it's like, oh, I've got to, you know, do a speech that I'm uncomfortable with. I'm starting a business and I've never done it.
00:03:03:20 - 00:03:20:21
Unknown
I've created a managerial role and I don't know what I'm really doing. Are these fairy examples pointed at me? Yeah. I fake it till you make it. That was. Did you see those person coach? That was a very for you. It is obvious you've never done. It was very subtle. That was that did your subconscious. That is your subconscious.
00:03:21:00 - 00:03:36:18
Unknown
That is not me. I'm. I'm sure I thought it was interesting. I'm rolling. Please. No, but are those fairy examples? Okay, I'm gonna think of real world examples of like. Well, yeah, it just fake it till you make it, kid. Okay, then if I'm faking it till I make it, can I admit, hey, I don't know what I'm doing.
00:03:36:20 - 00:03:51:18
Unknown
Oh, yeah, that's not fake. Okay, then that's not fake it till you make it. I think we have a different definition. I think we have to do what is fake it mean fake? It to me means act like you know what you're doing, okay? Fake it. What are you thinking then? Confidence. Okay. What are you thinking? That makes a lot of sense.
00:03:51:18 - 00:04:11:07
Unknown
I think I can answer that for you. Please do. Because I think of fake it to you. Make it depending on the audience I'm in front of. Okay. Does that make sense? No, I'm not okay. I'm a real life example. Please. Okay. Behind closed doors with you? Yeah, I might say. Wow, I really don't know. I don't even feel totally qualified for that role.
00:04:11:07 - 00:04:25:12
Unknown
I think we've had this conversation, but I will figure that out. Okay? Okay. Yeah. But then I don't. Can I pause? That's that's a growth mindset attitude to me like that is I, I like that what you just did I like hey I don't I've never done this I don't know, I didn't try I'm going to get out there, I'm gonna go for it.
00:04:25:14 - 00:04:48:06
Unknown
But then I go in front of the team and I look more confident for sure. Okay, than I am for sure. I'm like, I'm 100% sold on my decision. Might not be might be more like 80%. That is what I call thing is make it. But really I think what that is defining is imposter syndrome. Well I love that we're talking about this today because if that's what we're calling posture syndrome that is what took it all the way around.
00:04:48:06 - 00:05:06:08
Unknown
And all of it. That's what I would call imposter syndrome. Okay, okay, I got it, man. The world needs this. I a world, and this might be the best one. I think you are just automatically assuming that fake it till you make it has a negative connotation. It does to me. Oh it doesn't, it doesn't 100%. It's more of a like, okay, it's I feel great.
00:05:06:08 - 00:05:23:21
Unknown
And it's like a, it's a shield of like whether I want to do this or not. It feeds into a growth mindset for me. Whether I want to do this or not, I have to I have to do it first and foremost to ever do it again. And if I want to do it right, like if I want to start somewhere, I have to do it right now.
00:05:23:23 - 00:05:43:01
Unknown
Okay, can I ask a question? Can this kind of a personal question? And it may be condescending or attacking, and I don't intend it to be. I don't like either. I don't know the preface, but it might be, and I don't know for sure that I did, but I don't know how to ask. So is fake it till you make it almost, or could be a defense mechanism or a crutch for a fear failure.
00:05:43:03 - 00:06:02:09
Unknown
Like in other words, like at the heart of this is a fear of failure, but I'm going to fake it till I make it. It's almost like like you use the word shield. And that's what made me think about it. Well, but if you're in, fake it till you make it mindset, it kind of makes a failure. Like, oh, that's a little softer than I mean, I would say most people like deal with the fear of failure.
00:06:02:11 - 00:06:16:21
Unknown
I think that's a very common. Yeah, that's a thing. And so fake it till you make it is a way or to deal with. That's how I use the word mechanism to deal with fear of failure potentially. I don't know, I mean maybe have you heard that phrase. It's like the acute I don't Instagram things where it's like, do it.
00:06:16:21 - 00:06:31:17
Unknown
Afraid. Yeah. Do it. I feel the same. Do it. Scared? Yeah. Something like that. Do I feel the exact same when I leave something? I was like, well, I faked it till I made it. Yeah. Hey. And you made it out. So, you know, things are not the same. That is not the same statement to me whatsoever. If you said Jared, do it.
00:06:31:17 - 00:06:49:19
Unknown
Afraid or Jared, fake it till you make it version one. Absolutely. Let's do it. Well, I probably more version. No way. Fake it till you make it. It's interesting because you have. You've never had to though. You're a white male in business. Yeah. Sorry. I really cut you off for show. That's not true. I will lean into that.
00:06:49:19 - 00:07:13:01
Unknown
Right. Like that is not true. High priority for being a success a white male has. It's just because they're a white male. No, that's incredibly conscious. No no no no, I wouldn't say that. Okay. I would not say that. Say was I know white males were not successful. I do too. But I am saying when if I walk into a room of males, even males on our team, yes, I cannot show up as my authentic self, I cannot.
00:07:13:03 - 00:07:35:11
Unknown
It is not allowed. That is accurate. Okay. If you have the privilege of walking, unless I'm taking some contemplating this, I know I see it. You have the privilege of walking me in is the authentic version of you and being respected, being accepted and being heard, I do not. What is an authentic version of you that you are not allowed to show in that setting?
00:07:35:13 - 00:07:54:11
Unknown
I need examples to better understand. I am seeing that I'm seeing light hearted and genuinely maybe a little bit emotional, maybe everything she just said. Okay, some heart to the situation. Like it's just I think that you could do those same things. I mean, you're a man. People would respect you for it, but because, okay, here's a woman, I feel that they would not take her serious.
00:07:54:11 - 00:08:13:02
Unknown
I can hear that. Or I can hear that. By the way. Or my more authentic self might be, I'm not those things. I just live with Mike and RBF face. Yeah. And then that's just so and so because I don't have all of those other pieces. I am therefore seen as a Bleep. Do we swear. Yeah yeah yeah no no swear we're a G.
00:08:13:03 - 00:08:28:22
Unknown
But I get what you're saying I get it I get what you're saying. So it goes both ways. But also the other is true as well. And so you're just stuck somewhere in the middle. And that automatically creates imposter. I don't care if you're the most confident woman in the world. I think that automatically creates imposter syndrome. Period.
00:08:29:03 - 00:08:32:12
Unknown
Girl.
00:08:32:13 - 00:09:01:21
Unknown
Okay, but I can see from your vantage point how that's different. I just think we're born into a world where you're told way more often that you can't versus that you can. It now we're on we're diatribe off of imposter syndrome for a second. But I'm curious of this because one thing that irritates me is I don't like the word authentic being hijacked for an allowance for all sorts of behaviors.
00:09:01:21 - 00:09:17:05
Unknown
You see, I'm saying where it's like, well, they're being authentic. Yes, this is me. I mean, yeah, it's like, wait, hold on. There are behavioral settings. You know, I'm saying if I'm at a funeral, there's decorum. I want to follow a wedding, there's decorum. I want to follow up on that excuse for not meeting people, so I don't.
00:09:17:05 - 00:09:37:17
Unknown
So when I use the word I think that's why I ask the question. Okay. So your authentic self. So I'm curious of what you're not allowed to be. And I will say as the only male on this podcast today, I appreciate the statement in that, okay. Especially what you said. Yes. If I show up as vulnerable and emotional and crying, that can be applauded.
00:09:37:19 - 00:09:52:23
Unknown
Yeah, the like the right which I have and do write frequently and people respect you for it. But that is my authentic self. That is me being like, well, I hate this. I feel like crying right now and I'm gonna cry. Other days I don't feel like crying and I don't cry. I think that's a separate topic from this.
00:09:52:23 - 00:10:09:16
Unknown
But it's an interesting topic. It's an interesting leadership topic, especially both male and female in leadership thinking like okay, what does it mean to show up as your authentic self. Because I hate authenticity. Being like transparent like well, okay, you meet what is transparent. Me like completely. I tell you everything unfiltered. No, I was just not healthy. I was just in a great workshop about this.
00:10:09:16 - 00:10:27:18
Unknown
Okay, actually. And she literally said, now granted, this is a woman, so I'm curious her perspective. But she did feel passionate about this and I agreed with her. But she was saying work is not where you get to show up as your authentic self. That is not actually where you should be. So she was giving her own personal example of like in the last year, her mom got diagnosed with cancer.
00:10:27:18 - 00:10:45:02
Unknown
Her cat, she had all these bad things happen. If she had shown up to work as her authentic self, she would've been a basket case, right? So that so she was very adamantly saying you don't necessarily get to do that, but I would have to go back to my notes to say what the cure, really what her converse of it was because she did have a goal.
00:10:45:02 - 00:11:04:15
Unknown
That's interesting, but this is still how you show up. I think it was like, in more of an identity piece. I want to say she tied it more like that way. Like the core values of who I am can be consistent in and out of work. I agree with that. I may not show my authentic feelings necessarily, but to me it's a different episode.
00:11:04:16 - 00:11:26:11
Unknown
But to me, I do think the imposter syndrome very much ties into, I think going with the female piece. Okay, because you had asked me two years ago, I was not self-aware enough to know if you had asked me if I had imposter syndrome, I would've been like you. I'd been like, no, absolutely not. I'm very confident. Self-assurance very high for both of us on un string finders like, and I really am.
00:11:26:17 - 00:11:48:19
Unknown
It was not until I did more work to really realize, oh, I, I do actually have to. I don't get to just show up in those spaces and feel accepted, which is the definition of imposter. I don't think any good leader does good Leader podcast. I don't think good leaders do. In fact, once again, this is a side note, but I'm starting to get a little more passionate about some things that are becoming more and more and popular.
00:11:48:22 - 00:12:04:18
Unknown
Hey, good leadership like this, good leadership is sometimes good. Leadership is sometimes not self care. Now here's what I mean by that. Meaning what you're saying like, well, self-care today for me is going home and being a basket case. Now do any of that some days? Yes, absolutely. Today, Jared, you should give yourself that, you know, take the day off, take a sabbatical.
00:12:04:22 - 00:12:24:03
Unknown
So I'm not I don't want to be counter everything we've said there. But some days good leadership is like I'm sucking it up buttercup and I'm going to show up for someone else. I'm putting someone else above my own. That's servant leadership. Why? Because I'm the leader. I'm the leader and a good leader. Today goes, you know what?
00:12:24:05 - 00:12:41:00
Unknown
I will get out of bed even though I have Covid, and I will send you the slides. Okay? I don't feel like it. I don't want to do it, but I'm a good leader, right? You know, I wouldn't have done it. Well, I'm a better leader than you, so I'm maybe, but I wouldn't. Well, you know what? I'm the man, all right?
00:12:41:04 - 00:12:57:05
Unknown
No, I'm just kidding. I actually the imposter syndrome. So back to this. The imposter syndrome. I have an interesting study, actually. Well, let's hear, because I want to dive into let's let's bring it back and find some of the research. We found an imposter syndrome. Yeah, but I do think we're we're scratching the surface of some really interesting conversations, which we talked about before.
00:12:57:05 - 00:13:14:23
Unknown
But the difference in a male versus a female in leadership, the difference in a white male in leadership, all of those things I don't I don't, take any of that lightly. But I also think and one of my hot takes today is my opinion on this that we haven't even gotten to yet. So go ahead, Michelle, fake it till you make it back.
00:13:14:23 - 00:13:44:08
Unknown
Like you know what you're talking about over there. I'm actually I'm on it. I can Google things so fast. So it's interesting that you kind of said it. That sounds like a front for fear failure. Okay. Right. And studies have shown, so, that females struggle more with the fear of failure. So in a study, in 2002, that they found that there is a reported higher fear of failure among female students versus male students.
00:13:44:22 - 00:14:04:22
Unknown
And this is across multiple countries as well, across like 59 countries. Oh, wow. Which is really fascinating that this is not just yeah, that's really cross-cultural, but it's cross-cultural. And how we discuss things. And so they're saying like, maybe some of the reasons are, that men are encouraged to take risk, to try things, to go for it, and they're rewarded for those things.
00:14:04:22 - 00:14:24:23
Unknown
Yeah. Versus women are kind of being set up for men if you fail because oftentimes you're the caregiver. That means someone or something dies. And so you, because you're the caregiver in a lot of the situations, there's not a lot of space or room for failure. And so therefore it's not as encouraged versus men are encouraged to take risks.
00:14:24:23 - 00:14:40:18
Unknown
So this was like in a study in students. And so they were really focusing on like your grades and like how much risk are you taking, how much are you learning new things or how much are you trying to get the grade? But they were finding that it was men were like, well, I'll, I'll try things with the risk of a lower grade.
00:14:40:18 - 00:15:03:12
Unknown
And I'm not afraid of failing that class versus women were like, I have to make it. I have to. If I don't, I'm on toast. You know, which is interesting. So I think it's that narrative that we write in our heads of, like, there's a cost to failure, therefore I can't. Therefore I do need to. I mean, just you were saying, like, I have a shield of like, this is my confidence.
00:15:03:17 - 00:15:21:05
Unknown
I literally think of it as like a hat that I put on where I'm like, okay, I'm putting on this hat. I'm going to think like this and like, okay, there's some pieces of me that are real nervous or scared or whatever, but I have that hat on, you know, and I'm going to put that hat on and I can make these decisions and I can try and I can going to see because guess what?
00:15:21:07 - 00:15:40:17
Unknown
There are people counting on me. There are something happening. I have to go for it, you know? Yeah. That reminds me of, have you heard Brené Brown talk about permission slips? Oh, no. Like I give permission. I do it sometimes when I'm reading a book. Yeah, I know right. At least I've. I mentioned I'm doing 75 is.
00:15:40:21 - 00:16:00:15
Unknown
Oh. Oh, yeah. Why are we still in that yellow right there. We're like 147 hard at this point. And in the there's a chapter on permission slips. But the book is about creativity. Wait, which one are you reading? Was it a Bernie Brown book? No. It's, by the woman who Elizabeth Gilbert. She wrote. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:16:00:20 - 00:16:32:12
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Oh, I forgot what it's called. I know, but I'm reading. Yeah, I've been posting it. I don't know if you've seen, but it's it's untamed. Untamed. Now that's going to Doyle. Oh, he read it. Glenn is also great. I bet I have. Glennon Doyle is probably giving her some listeners lives. So I guess listeners know I've listened to it, but I actually view it that same way as what you guys are saying, where it is like that permission, like I'm going to I do not feel qualified to be here at all, but I'm giving myself the permission to walk into a room like I am.
00:16:32:12 - 00:16:46:21
Unknown
I'm walking into the room like they have accepted me, even though I have proof they haven't. So it's like a permission slip to me in that sense. Well, and all of those things I do those things too. I just so let's just it's a personal I don't like the word fake it. I like fake it til you make it.
00:16:46:21 - 00:17:01:00
Unknown
I think it is. It is personal, your friend. I will say that's how I started. I see that is a trigger for me. Absolutely. But I do the same thing. So if whether it's a permission slip, whether it's fake until you make it for me, I'm just a classic. What's the worst that could happen? That's me. I just go to.
00:17:01:00 - 00:17:17:02
Unknown
What's the worst that could happen? Like everything. And that's where better for something. Well, and I will say that does work better. But for me, I. And this goes to I am a person of faith. I am a person of family. I am fortunate, I will I will say a lot of my risk, or lack of risk aversion is because I have a very big safety net.
00:17:17:02 - 00:17:34:22
Unknown
I mean, the worst case scenario for me like it. The whole world falls apart. I'm my call, my mom and my daddy like, and I'm very thankful for that. I am very, aware of that. You know, I'm saying that that's that's a huge safety, like, literally the absolute worst thing in the world that can happen is I have to turn to my family and say, I need your help.
00:17:35:00 - 00:17:49:12
Unknown
I need help, some of us and not everybody has. That don't happen. I guess that's what I'm saying. I'm fair about that. But that's where. Okay, so my mechanism doesn't have to be fake until you make it. That's the mechanism that doesn't make sense for me. I was like, okay, well, I'm not thinking if I make it, I know, man, I'm probably going to suck here today.
00:17:49:12 - 00:18:07:07
Unknown
But and what's the worst that could happen unless you try and you fail. And also I think that's where some of you like what you're saying. Because when you were talking, Michelle, I was thinking of Sheryl Sandberg's book, Lean In, and I can't remember the exact phraseology, but she has a whole several. Maybe it's an entire chapter on, like, just the way that women have to interview and think about things.
00:18:07:07 - 00:18:24:16
Unknown
It's about risk taking, essentially, and the encouragement of like, well, just go ask like me, just go ask, what can I say? No, like me, I'm what's the worst thing ever? She say no and she's like, no, that's not the worst that could happen for this female. Oh okay. Now once again I think I'm pretty at least self-aware and fair to say I don't know what that's like.
00:18:25:02 - 00:18:48:17
Unknown
So I don't know what that's like. But as we're talking about imposter, imposter syndrome, I want to throw out some facts, as we throw out all of our opinions. The fact is that it is not a diagnosable mental illness like imposter syndrome is not a diagnosable thing, which I think is a is, maybe a misconception, you know, that it's like, oh, yeah, you you can't actually be diagnosed with imposter syndrome.
00:18:49:00 - 00:19:08:21
Unknown
I got this research from psychology Today. My definition, that I found was a behavioral health phenomenon described as self-doubt, intellect, skills or accomplishment, specifically among high achieving individuals. Yeah. So my simplistic definition, if you're like, I, you know, I've heard somebody imposter syndrome and I want you to give us your definition that you found in just a moment.
00:19:08:23 - 00:19:26:12
Unknown
But the simplistic way to think about it is like, okay, the internal dialog tells you you can't do this or you're not worthy of this, or you are going to fail at this, even when the external evidence is pointing to the otherwise right. Everyone knows and everyone knows it. The external evidence says no. You are a good leader, a high achiever.
00:19:26:12 - 00:19:41:03
Unknown
You have this. You've earned it. It's like, yeah. But so that's when we're when we're talking about imposter syndrome. Those are those things. So give us that actual definition that you led the show with. Oh, so that we can get that. And then I want to jump into my hot take thought before we go to break.
00:19:41:05 - 00:19:59:11
Unknown
Also, I want to put the plug in the book I'm reading. It's called Big magic. Big magic. Oh, it's so good. Creative living beyond fear. Yes. Wow. That's exactly we're talking about today. It's just big magic. And who's the author? Does Elizabeth Gilbert okay, excellent. She's incredible. Yeah, I love her. Yeah. I do have that long definition that I started with.
00:19:59:13 - 00:20:19:01
Unknown
I have a little bit of a shorter one. Do you want me to go back? Go for the shorter one. Okay, so I did like this one. It was repeat because it's simple repeated feelings or thoughts that are incompetent or not good enough despite evidence to the contrary. Yeah okay. Yeah. Kind of what you just said. Okay. So here's my hot take and I'm going to go to break and then we'll come back, play a fun little game.
00:20:19:01 - 00:20:34:19
Unknown
And I'm actually I found five different types of imposter syndrome. After the break I was just going to ask yeah, yeah. So that's what we're going to in this episode. But before we do that, here's my take. If you're out there and you're living in imposter syndrome, okay, here's my advice. Stop using the phrase imposter syndrome. Oh, sure.
00:20:34:19 - 00:20:53:00
Unknown
Yeah. That's why I'm putting a label on it. Well, use some different labels. So here's one thing. This is not a medical diagnosis. So it is literally impossible for you to have imposter syndrome. First of all, from a factual medical standpoint, you cannot have it. I can't it's like saying, oh, is your arm broken? Well, we know if your arms broken or not, you can take an X-ray and we can say, yes, you have a broken arm.
00:20:53:02 - 00:21:14:06
Unknown
It's a mindset. It's a mindset. Yeah. So I think everyone is on the imposter syndrome scale. All of us. Everyone's on that scale. Sure. And I think imposter syndrome was being used the way depression, the word depression was used 25 years ago. Very buzzworthy, very buzz word. 25 years ago, I was like, oh, I think I'm depressed. Wait a minute, you're sad or you're having a bad day.
00:21:14:06 - 00:21:37:17
Unknown
Yeah. Or you're tired. Yeah. You are not depressed, right? We have discovered we have learned depression is an actual clinical diagnosis that has symptoms and consequences. And you're saying like, so don't say you're depressed. That's that's number one. It's overestimating your condition and undermining the actual idea of depression. Right. So you know, and I remember we've moved away from that I think culturally.
00:21:37:19 - 00:21:51:11
Unknown
But 25 years ago people said it all the time. And y'all are all probably too young to even be in that sphere. But 20, 25 years ago, people said, oh, I'm just depressed. I'm just depressed. I'm depressed. Today I'm depressed. I mean, people say a lot. I mean, I'm talking like when I was in high school, he was like, hey, are you okay?
00:21:51:11 - 00:22:16:02
Unknown
I'm just depressed. Yeah, I'm just depressed. Very buzzworthy. Cool. Now people are taking a lot more seriously. Absolutely. Which is great. I applaud that. And mental health and awareness. That's actually great. So until we do the same thing with imposter syndrome, if and when we do, we may, we may not. But for today, I would actually use use more words because the power of language is immense.
00:22:16:04 - 00:22:32:02
Unknown
So if you keep telling yourself I an imposter, I'm dealing with imposter syndrome, I'm dealing with imposter syndrome, I'm dealing with imposter syndrome. Then you're probably negatively reinforcing those ideas. Instead, use words. And that's what I'm saying. It's a spectrum. Let's say if I'm on one end of the spectrum, because I'm actually not as confident as I come off.
00:22:32:04 - 00:22:48:14
Unknown
That's part of my defense mechanism. You came in this episode real hot. That's all I'm saying. Well, if you're saying somebody's got to be the best. All right, I'll take it. I'll take that mental. But I'm not. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid to be the best. Smart. Okay? Some people aren't. I'm not. I do really not like the word imposter syndrome.
00:22:48:14 - 00:23:06:23
Unknown
I never subscribe to it. Which I think is. And I don't hate it. That's not a trigger for me. Somebody saying person. That's not the trigger. You make it. I do that crap. Jeez, Louise, I hate it. These women. Exactly. Finally, someone who understands. Okay. Thank you, thank you. Mr.. Nobody gets you like. Thank you, Mr. Tree. Yeah.
00:23:07:01 - 00:23:23:10
Unknown
No problem. Oh, man. I wish we had a mr. tree alter ego that you could bring into the show sometimes. That'd be nice. Well, I'm leaving, right? I know, I don't want it. Wow, wow. Where did you wait? Is this announce it who you are? Really? We can talk more about it. We'll talk later. I'll cry or something.
00:23:23:11 - 00:23:41:01
Unknown
But if we think of it as a scale, then. And allow yourself and I actually. Do you think this is helpful then instead of being this all or nothing, well, either have imposter syndrome or I don't. Sure. Well, no, it's either I am extremely confident in this ability, in this capacity, in this space all the way to imposter syndrome on the other end of the spectrum.
00:23:41:01 - 00:23:57:20
Unknown
And along the way, there are things like words like doubt, worry, fear, anxiety, frustration. There are a lot of words that you could use to describe your current state, your current mental state that I think would give you more power over the situation that is, if you're saying like, how are you doing today? I'm just dealing with imposter syndrome versus how you doing today?
00:23:57:22 - 00:24:09:16
Unknown
I've got a lot of doubts about this meeting. Oh, well, that's a separate thing. You know, I'm saying it's kind of like we did this activity the other day in our staff meeting, which was phenomenal, and we're going to do more with it. But there's a great quote. I have to look it up and give credit where credit's due.
00:24:09:18 - 00:24:29:15
Unknown
There's a great quote that says draw a monster. And we did this in a staff meeting. Draw a monster, and we all drew monsters. And then we did some fun stuff with it where we shared our monsters, talked about it. But the quote is draw a monster. What makes it a monster? And I'm trying to find who said it because it is a that is just a super powerful idea to me.
00:24:29:17 - 00:24:49:14
Unknown
And that's a little bit of what I'm saying here. So I honestly draw a monster. Why is it a monster? And it's the same thing if you create this monster out of imposter syndrome and this is all or nothing, it's this becomes this boogeyman where it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead, draw the monster. What makes it a monster? Well, I'm worried about how people will perceive me after this meeting.
00:24:49:20 - 00:25:06:15
Unknown
Okay, that's easier to deal with, is it? Go away. No, it doesn't go away. It doesn't go away. And you're still dealing with that. But it's easier to deal with other than, well, I'm sick. I'm really sick. Okay. What have you got? I don't know, I'm just really sick. Well, let's diagnose it a little bit more and say, well, my I've got a sore foot.
00:25:06:17 - 00:25:24:18
Unknown
Oh, okay. Well, what's wrong with your foot? Oh, there's a rash on the bottom. It will. Okay. That's disgusting. And that's what. But you know what? There's something we can do about that now. So diagnose more properly on. What are you doing? Laughing at me over there? No, I think it's funny you're saying that because I think the reason people don't want a diagnosis.
00:25:24:18 - 00:25:48:08
Unknown
Because then they'd have to deal with it. So you're saying. Which is very appropriate to your personality, you're like, just something I missed and I want to fix it. Okay. A lot of people, that is you keep saying that's easier for a lot of people. That is harder. It is easier for me, not necessarily me, but it is easier for a lot of people to say, oh, I just start with impostor syndrome versus, oh, I just really struggle with the idea that I need everybody to like me in the room.
00:25:48:08 - 00:26:03:19
Unknown
Oh, I see that is way harder to accept than just the universal that is such a good. That's fair. And so let me and even in my explanation, I don't want to use the word easy, but I think it's better. Oh, it's for sure. So I'm saying that and I don't even want to say that it's easier for me, because I don't think that would be easier for me.
00:26:03:22 - 00:26:18:23
Unknown
I think it easier sometimes it is easier for me just to say I'm really frustrated today. And I think it shows signs of like your willingness to change that. Yeah, to change and to grow. Because I need to and I get it. You're totally right on. And that's really fitting to say. Well, it's easier to say, I would dare say that's pretty universal though.
00:26:19:00 - 00:26:33:10
Unknown
Like, even for someone like me who is a pretty high achiever, it's still easier for me to just go out. Imposter syndrome. Well, fake it till you make it. Well, I don't know. Don't throw your hands up. My point is, well, instead of just saying, don't throw your hands up, I want us to give a few more tactics.
00:26:33:11 - 00:26:50:12
Unknown
Yeah. And one of those tactics, tactics to me is diagnose it, use more specific language, identify your feelings. Which is hard. You're right. That is harder work might bring up some other things, but lo and behold, probably maybe those other things would actually get to the root. Hopefully. Will you bring up the imposter syndrome? Yeah. Oh it's because.
00:26:50:12 - 00:27:04:05
Unknown
Wow. Lo and behold, I'm still trying to please my mom. You know, from when I was five years old. Wow. Holy cow. Now that's deep waters. But I did read a lot of psychology Today in preparation for the episode. So after this I have a therapy session. But before that, we're going to take a break and come back with a fun game.
00:27:04:09 - 00:27:10:06
Unknown
I'm dying.
00:27:10:08 - 00:27:32:05
Unknown
If you didn't know, The Good Leader podcast is powered by paradigm shift, paradigm shift is on a mission to unlock individual's leadership potential. If you are interested in leadership development resources such as keynotes, cohorts, or workshops, visit Dot company for more information.
00:27:32:07 - 00:27:56:06
Unknown
Okay, okay. That's right. Check out Doc Company. Hire us so that we can keep doing this for free. Now. Imposter syndrome I'm gonna give you five types. According to my research. One interesting nugget you were talking about. I don't know if we mentioned this, but, imposter syndrome and these are very, broad studies, but the approximation is, 70% of women feel, imposter syndrome at some point in time.
00:27:56:06 - 00:28:13:14
Unknown
Something like that seems pretty high. That is high. It makes sense. I believe it, though. You know how women are. All right. He says to three women. Disclaimer I just make it. The only reason I can laugh is because I know you don't actually believe I need for people who don't know, you had a moment of like, who?
00:28:13:16 - 00:28:30:15
Unknown
He has a hold leadership team of women. Do I feel like. Yep, yep. Not everyone knows that, though. You're going to become clickbait soon. Won't you text me when you don't fake it till you make it? I can stand on a joke. Go ahead. Yes. What's your disclaimer? He doesn't hate women. I'm not coming off as a women hater.
00:28:30:17 - 00:28:50:22
Unknown
Am I? Hey. It's me. And that's if you accept you, someone cares. You really? No no no no no no I digress okay, but he isn't. He isn't being intentionally condescending. Just say that's a better. Yeah. No, actually I am very intentionally being condescending. Right back to women towards women. Yeah. As a joke. Wait, I'm saying I'm I'm really over.
00:28:51:00 - 00:29:09:17
Unknown
You're trying to do it. Yeah, I know, stop being such a girl. Condescending, going, condescending women isn't a joke. I've been condescended by women many times. Deserve that. So. Okay. All right. She had imposter syndrome. She was trying to fake it. As you're making it, I was like, you don't do that. Like you have to do that devolving quickly.
00:29:09:18 - 00:29:27:01
Unknown
Not here. You have to do that here. Not with me. I'm loving it. According to Doctor Valerie Young, there are five imposter types. Okay, so I'm ready. I'm ready. Game. The final game is you pick where you identify. Oh you're like oh that's oh. So this is actually this is, this is I was like, oh, I thought this is a fun play.
00:29:27:01 - 00:29:47:15
Unknown
That commercial music again. We you just we'll do one more commercial break, play that commercial music for me. Need therapy. We can't afford it. Check out the Good Leader podcast. We're here is Amateur Psychologist to help you diagnose anything that may or may not exist. Will we be actually helpful? Who knows, but at least we're free. Disclaimer we are not actual psychologists.
00:29:47:17 - 00:30:05:15
Unknown
That was a good commercial. Well done. Just that was a great disclaimer at the end. We're not okay, so self-diagnose here. Number one is the perfectionist. This type of imposter syndrome involves believing that unless you are absolutely perfect, you could have done better. You feel like an imposter because your perfectionist traits make you believe that you're not as good as others think you are.
00:30:05:18 - 00:30:26:11
Unknown
That's the perfection. So remember, these are all important. Why are you looking at me? You can diagnose why are you unfortunately, but actually syndrome for the listeners at home. Imposter syndrome is the overview. It's the umbrella. And these are specific times. Yes okay. Yeah. So that's the perfectionist. Number one. Be sure you take notes because you know I don't need the five I already have for other types that you might be.
00:30:26:11 - 00:30:47:08
Unknown
Oh I'm sure I'm all five. The expert the expert feels like an imposter because they don't know everything there is to know about a particular subject or topic, or they haven't mastered every step in the process because there is more for them to learn. They don't feel as if they reached the rank of expert. So number one, perfectionist number two, expert number three, the natural genius.
00:30:47:08 - 00:31:04:19
Unknown
Oh, and this imposter syndrome type. You may feel like a fraud simply because you don't believe that you are naturally intelligent or competent. If you don't get something right the first time around, where it takes you longer to master a skill, you feel like an imposter. The natural genius number for the solo is. This is fascinating, by the way, this is good.
00:31:04:22 - 00:31:25:09
Unknown
This is a this is really a good amateur psychology hour. This is really dissecting it. It is I like this, I like this, work. Thank you. Doctor Valerie Young, she's doing great. I mean, she could do better, but. All right, number four, the soloist. Everyone, please. Another disclaimer. We love women out here. I love women, you know, I love women.
00:31:25:09 - 00:31:42:06
Unknown
You know, when I've been 11 women my whole life. I love women, please. Okay. For the one person in the audience that gets that reference, they loved it. Justin. All right. The soloist.
00:31:42:08 - 00:32:00:04
Unknown
It's also possible to feel like an imposter if you've had to ask for help to reach a certain level or status. Since you couldn't get there on your own. You question your competence. But these are good, right? That's good. Yeah, I yeah, number five is the super person this type of imposter syndrome involves okay you can't go five out of five.
00:32:00:07 - 00:32:14:05
Unknown
All right I'm going to make you at least like at least pick one that's a little above the other I. And even if you don't believe it, fake it till you make it. Okay? Give me an eye on it. All right, number five. Here you go. The super person. This type of imposter syndrome involves believing that you must be the hardest worker.
00:32:14:05 - 00:32:30:02
Unknown
Or reach the highest levels of achievement possible. And if you don't, you are a fraud. This is fascinating. This is tough, and I agree, I think it can be multiples to have bits and pieces of each. I do agree with that. I got a lot because I'm feeling a little. I'm feeling a little upset. A lot of things going on.
00:32:30:02 - 00:32:42:16
Unknown
Okay. All right. Who wants to go first here? Who wants to go first? Because I have a I have a new revelation for me. I can't wait for you to go right now. You all I will. You may go first. Yeah, that'd be good. I actually think this reinforces my spectrum theory of saying, like, instead of saying imposter syndrome.
00:32:42:16 - 00:33:01:04
Unknown
It's like I have a little of that and that that can creep in that I tend to be for me. Oh, man. In my professional life, the expert comes out a lot. Absolutely. Because I'm, I'm hired by very high level achievers to come to know what you're talking. I know what I'm talking about and lead them in new ways, better ways.
00:33:01:08 - 00:33:21:07
Unknown
There many times I'm like, okay, like, I have a really good friend who is in a similar space, who's a professional speaker. And as I was building paradigm shift and starting this, I'm talking ten years ago and laying out the blueprint and, and what we're doing and where we're going, he specifically asked me, he's like, why would you want to work with people more than once?
00:33:21:09 - 00:33:37:21
Unknown
Like, well, what do you mean? He's like, man, because you're awesome is speaking. You come in, do your keynote, they love you. You wow him, and then you move on. He's like, if you keep working with people, they're gonna expect results. They don't expect you to know what's going on. Which honestly is a valid point. And there are a lot of speakers who it's like, man, they are awesome for that hour.
00:33:37:21 - 00:33:52:07
Unknown
It's a good model. It's a great model. I don't I don't fall for it. I'm just the juxtaposition to where I'm like, well, no, I want to, I want to see results. I want to help people. And but it that's not really creating. So I feel now is it. Well, it is for that hour I create positive change for me.
00:33:52:07 - 00:34:11:21
Unknown
I'm really good for sustainable, positive change. Well, now you're throwing more words. Okay. I get your question. I feel the expert in my professional settings quite a bit. I'm like, okay, that I can feel that. And then, the super person for sure just says, My Enneagram three over here, like, I'm the super person. Yeah. So those are mine.
00:34:11:23 - 00:34:25:14
Unknown
Yeah. And I feel that. But now what I call what I at the beginning of this episode. Hey, Jared, you have imposter syndrome. No, I don't I don't have imposter syndrome because I also I own that I don't have imposter syndrome. Not that I don't deal with this stuff, but it's like, well, I don't want to know. It's kind of like my depression thing.
00:34:25:14 - 00:34:44:20
Unknown
I don't want to miss my someone who may be actually dealing with something on a pretty heavy level or much more than I am. Yeah. So it's a spectrum. What? Okay. What is the difference between solo and super person? Soloist says it's. Oh, because soloist is you didn't do it on your own, so you feel like, you know, so you didn't get there on your own, you needed help.
00:34:44:20 - 00:35:02:11
Unknown
And so you question your competence. Super person is almost striving to be to be the best. So I think a solo is it doesn't matter where you rank quote unquote. But you're like, well, I didn't get it. But even if you got to say, oh, I got this job because my uncle works here, right? And I know I'm saying or whatever, I got this job because of somebody like, well, my friend had to give me a recommendation.
00:35:02:11 - 00:35:21:14
Unknown
So it's really my friend that did it, not me. Yeah. Whereas the super person, it's more about I got to be the best. I got to be best. Yeah. And if I'm not the best, what am I, an imposter syndrome? You do, you do, I do, I really meant why do. But I'm saying I'll you going. It's it does keep me going.
00:35:22:10 - 00:35:44:18
Unknown
I'm rocking with a bit of perfectionist. Okay. And then, probably solo a bit. Okay. I think sometimes I'm like, well, I can just do this all on my own. And I think that's just comes from the habit of, like, not being able to have help. So it's like I've learned how to do it on my own for so long.
00:35:44:18 - 00:36:10:12
Unknown
Like even I think it comes from like growing up specifically. Okay, so and perfectionist for sure. Like if this isn't perfect and I didn't spend blood, sweat and tears on this, then it's not worth it to me. Okay. All right. Rochelle. Wow. One through five. Perfectionist excuse. Not rational genius. Uhhuh. Soloist. Super person. I think the super person actually is a perfectionist, for sure.
00:36:10:12 - 00:36:32:00
Unknown
Speaking to me because I have such, like, such a high level of, like, it has to be amazing. Because you were saying all this like, it has to be completely perfect, which is not true, actually. Once again, I like this phrase by definition. It's unless you were absolutely perfect, you could have done better. Yeah. And therefore the perfectionism kicks in and they imposter yeah.
00:36:32:00 - 00:36:45:14
Unknown
Syndrome tendencies because I replay things in the sense that I'm like, wow, I thought that was great. But then I think about ash. I could have said this, didn't say that I did that, but, you know, like all the time. Yeah. So I think I hold myself and then I'm like, I don't deal with that at all in the shower.
00:36:45:14 - 00:36:59:23
Unknown
I don't know. My God, I'm, I, I feel that I was awesome, that was great. And I'm on to the next thing you know, the memories, like, attack you from nowhere and you're like, oh, shit, I need, you know, done this. Yeah, because I had this and, this is what I would do if. Yeah. And then it almost like, dismantles the like.
00:36:59:23 - 00:37:19:07
Unknown
Wow, I was really proud of that. Definitely. But then I think about all the things I could have, should have, would have kind of thing. And it almost like takes away that. Yeah. Pride of like wow, I was really proud of that. But now the more I think about it I'm actually not. Yeah. You know and so I think that's that imposter syndrome that's just like I could have I could have been a better leader.
00:37:19:07 - 00:37:36:16
Unknown
You know, if I had just said this one thing that now I know, but I wouldn't have known unless I had gone through it right with that circumstance, that person, whatever. So, yeah, I think that okay, interesting. A perfectionist on you. You're not a perfectionist. So what are you any of those or. None? Maybe you've mastered this whole thing.
00:37:36:20 - 00:37:52:17
Unknown
I haven't mastered them. No, but I, boring. It's gonna be the same as you. Okay. The experience. Who I know. Sorry. I was like, hey, you can skip me anything. You know what? I need a better. So let's move on. All right. Experts and, super person. Yeah. No, I see that. Which one do you feel like?
00:37:52:17 - 00:38:10:13
Unknown
Do you feel like there's a difference for, like I said, is there a difference in your personal life and professional life? I did think it was interesting you went there. I don't feel that much in my personal life. Okay? I can't think of a lot of moments where I feel maybe at all. Yeah, well, I'd say probably be all professional, I think.
00:38:10:13 - 00:38:28:15
Unknown
Okay. In the way I'm viewing it. Okay. Really interesting. Yeah. Well, I'm interested by your intrigues. Not because you're involved in you're involved in, like, communities of worship. You're involved in different settings like that. So is it like. Oh, yeah. No, none of it. No, I don't feel that at all. Okay. That's where I feel like super person is what I'm saying.
00:38:28:15 - 00:38:46:13
Unknown
Like, you need to be better. Yeah, well, if I'm not the best, like, I can't just attend church. That's hard for me. Oh, sure. Wow. Seriously. And I'm not. I'm saying that's kind of an issue. It's because that's not. Well, why? Well, there's nothing to be the best at. And there's always somebody. Well, I know you take that.
00:38:46:15 - 00:39:01:13
Unknown
That's a little split. I know, and I mean, and I'm not I'm not trying to hyper spiritualize it. No, I'm seriously just looking at it like real parts of my life. Why do you feel that? Jared? Well, I can admit I probably shouldn't feel that, but it's true. If you ask your pastor who's the best volunteer in this church, they have an answer.
00:39:01:19 - 00:39:18:11
Unknown
I don't want it to be idle. Hands up. Say, that is not me. I'm saying it. Okay. And then I think that's where I like it. Well, but my is the super person. This type of imposter syndrome involves believing that you must be the hardest worker or reach the highest levels of achievement possible. Yeah, and if you don't, you are a fraud.
00:39:18:14 - 00:39:39:02
Unknown
Yeah, I only feel that I work, I feel oh, I want, I have to be the best dad at the soccer field. I have to be the best volunteer at church. I have to be the best. Whatever. Even like this. Like, wow, I was the best one on the podcast today. I'm not saying I am and it's your podcast I know, but I'm giving you, I'm just trying to be as, as, I mean in that one I feel probably less work.
00:39:39:04 - 00:39:55:04
Unknown
But seriously it's like the I think I'm the best on the podcast today. I just want to say not I agree with, you know, that one podcast where you did the Tinker Bell thing over and over that that was that was one I give you today is not your best that that came out. You dropped an announcement without even any pomp and circumstance.
00:39:55:04 - 00:40:10:10
Unknown
Now, you know, in the day. Yeah, I win the day with how hot I came. It was still with the fake it. Or till you make it clear I am warming, I'm winning. Speaking of that, go for. Can you follow us? Paradigm shift leadership. Is that where they follow us? Everywhere? Do you know our socials? LinkedIn? I ask you to may I try to make you feel important?
00:40:10:12 - 00:40:13:22
Unknown
Okay.
00:40:13:23 - 00:40:35:11
Unknown
Check us out all over social media. Tell us who is the best today. Go out there. Fake it till you make it. Take Jess. Be a good leader. That Jess. Cue the music. Right here. We're done. We're done. Yes! That's it. We're over. That was insane.
00:40:35:13 - 00:40:48:15
Unknown
You're leaving? So sorry. You just showed like that. It was a good time because you and I were just going to go at it. You were going to make me say things you don't want to hear. I don't wanna say we were going for 40 minutes. I know, that's why I ended it. The internal clock was way past, so I was like, it's a good time to end it.
00:40:48:17 - 00:40:49:19
Unknown
Oh, I love the post credit.